Everyone welcome to the Atari Haka Podcast in this week I’m not going to be Joined by Mark but I’m going to be Joined by my good friend Kevin Espirito Kevin has done some previous podcasts With us but a lot has changed for him if You don’t know him he’s the guy behind Epicgardening.com and he’s a pretty big Celebrity in the gardening Niche these Days and he has all started with a site That he started with Atari hacker Pro And an authority site but now his store Is making 7.5 million dollars of sales Per year mostly driven by his website And his social media presence and he’s On track to double it in 2022. he’s also Just received an investment of 17.5 Million dollars for large Equity stake In his business from the guys at the German group the other guys that are Also invested in companies like Headspace the meditation company ubering For the health tracking exploding kitten Cameo.com Twitter and Pandora so these Are really really good investors and It’s really cool to see how far Kevin is Taking the model how he has applied his Twist to it and what we’re gonna do is We’re going to have a candy discussion About how he got there how he used his Side to eventually get where he is and Also like what the future of the Industry holds and how people should Maybe twist the model to go past
Affiliate and add Revenue now we’re Going to be jumping in the interview but Before we do I just want to let you know As well that Atari hacker Pro the Training that actually Kevin used to get Started with his website is coming back On sale this Sunday for the first time In a year and I honestly don’t know Where he’s gonna come back again so if You are not sign up for email is go on Authorityhacker.com subscribe and put Your email if you want to hear more About it and we will be giving a lot More details on Sunday so now without Further Ado let’s jump into the Interview Foreign Welcome back to the Atari hacker podcast Today I am not with Markham with the Next best person or maybe arguably Better I would say Um and that is going to be Kevin who is A pretty good friend of mine I know him For a long time I know this is the Wicked fire times actually and Kevin is Beautiful if you don’t know him like I Mean we put him on the website because He’s a really good example of a success Story from our community but Kevin runs Epicgardening.com which is we started Basically as an authority site following Our model and kind of like deviated to More of an Ecom Empire right now and We’re gonna get into that uh eventually
But like do you want to introduce XP Epic gardening for people maybe so like Yeah for people who don’t know about it Yeah so it’s I mean you’re right it Really started out as a gardening blog Back in the day actually it was called Xponics which was like uh it was like The worst brand name ever uh so I I went A little hopefully a little better with Epic gardening but yeah I mean it really It was like a Hydroponics blog back in The day that kind of started really as Like a hobby and and you know like I was Talking forever about how I wanted to do Something with it and do this or do that And I was always doing something else uh And then now as you as you mentioned It’s pivoted well past the blog model Into social platforms and commerce and You know we have a 22 person team now uh So it’s it’s gotten a little past the uh And you got like a lot of investment Recently as well I mean I’ll talk about This at some point but there was some Big announcement recently right yeah end Of December we raised 17 and a half Million Um to to go for this whole model which We’ll get into Yeah that’s really cool actually uh That’s actually my next question was Like can you give us an idea of how it Does but if you got 17.5 million Investments yeah probably all right yeah
I mean I can say last year we did and Last so last year was really it was Myself as the host of this whole world And then I had an editor-in-chief I had One Creator who we were just starting to Build like another Creator underneath Epic and an assistant and that’s it Um and we did 7.4 million in Revenue so Obviously like when you get to a certain Level of Revenue investment companies or People’s eyes just start to go like this Uh so you start getting inquiries and Yeah that’s kind of how it played out Yeah that’s I mean that’s really cool And it’s like it’s cool because you took It you kind of like put your own spin on It and that’s kind of like what I want To get to so I want to I want to First Reverse back to like when you started And as we go we’re gonna get to like how You you took your own spin to this uh But can you give us an idea of like when You started uh I mean you had this extra Exponents yeah uh website but I remember That you had a job and you didn’t really Work on it and then eventually Eventually you came back to it like what Happened then basically yeah I mean I Think Way back in the wicked fire days like You’re saying it’s so weird I know a lot Of people from those days have now made It in one way or another uh they’re Doing well in some fashion but uh that
Was just an old school affiliate Marketing Forum that we all learned how To like work on the internet in 2009 or 10 or something and so back then I think I registered epic gardening in 2013. Um and maybe the exponents thing was Like not that far before that you know So yeah you know back then it was just a Hobby like I was saying and I was doing Um website design I was doing like local SEO for like a plumber or a lawyer or Something I had you’re an account Manager for us for a few months actually Yeah for a few months for your agency Two three months yeah yeah I realized I Wasn’t the best at that role probably I Don’t know what you guys thought I mean It was just you were like you’re kind of In between projects I knew it was kind Of like a way to get some help on our End and for you to get like figure out The next thing yeah yeah exactly and you Know it was cool because I got to see Kind of how the SC like a proper SEO Agency ran because I wasn’t running one That was super sophisticated uh and then What did I do after that I mean I I Tried raising money from just like not Not real investors just like friends and Family uh not my friends and family my Co-pounders friends and family to do uh This relationship building startup it Was like an app that was Uh supposed to basically like you could
Put in your wife Gail and then say you Know here’s what her favorite music is And her favorite this or that and it Would sort of tell you like cool things To do or cool gifts to buy but we built It definitely like I you know I honestly We were trying to use machine learning Um back then which would have been 2014 Which I think was probably a little Early and we built it desktop so it Wasn’t it just wasn’t going to work Um but you know learned failed worked at A company called scribe cool project Yeah I mean it was cool it was cool I Just like didn’t know what I didn’t know Type of thing on how to build something And then um yeah after that I kind of Put my hat on the table and I was like You know what I need to go learn from Someone who actually knows what they’re Doing about building business so I Worked at a company I was a second Employee at scribe media Used to be called book in a box now it’s Scribe At this point they’ve done like they did David Goggins book can’t hurt me it’s a Publishing company uh so I learned a lot There and then about a year and a half In I left and I decided to go full time On Epic yeah that’s that’s when uh it’s Like I remember it’s like we were Starting to get good success with our Sites and we were chatting and then yeah
And then it’s like uh you were between Jobs I’m not you’re still at your job But you were like Kind of considering for for the next Thing it’s kind of on the way out and Then that’s when you kind of like Decided to go all in on Epic and that’s When you rebranded I think like it was Still the hydroponic blog and that’s When you Rebrand it to Epic gardening Right well so I that would that would Have been 2016 Summer okay and so it was Already epic gardening but I have a Whole chart of like what it was making Back then it was making like four or Five hundred bucks a month when I quit So I had obviously I had some savings Saved up from my days playing poker or Doing some other stuff so I wasn’t gonna Like go broke or anything but it wasn’t Making a lot of money so I just decided I remember I probably talked to you a Lot at that point in time of like what Should I do you know what’s next and I Was obsessed with hitting you know I Think it was three thousand dollars a Month at the start I think 4K I remember Before yeah it was something like that And you were sitting there I think this Is when you had health ambition going uh And that was doing really well for you Uh which I always appreciated because I Was like look like they’re building Things not just in how to build things
Space you know like you’re doing it in Health in some other spaces and I was Like oh man like if I could only get to 4K and I remember you being like you Could like get to more than 4K and I was like really like I don’t I Don’t know like it seems pretty crazy You just want to pay your bills I Remember you were like oh if I pay my Bills I’m happy yeah which I think is a Goal for a lot of people right it’s like When you start you’re like well I just Want these two to pay for my stuff and Then pay for itself and then after that We’ll see you know yeah so how long did It take to get there like from the 500 Bucks a month to the it pays my bills I Think it took so I if I quit June 2016 In September 2016 it was making 3K Um now that’s not like a typical story Because the obviously it had been around For a while but um all I did was I just Got really tactical I’m like and I Looked at Amazon Affiliates I was like Well what’s making me the 400 you know And then From there I just sort of built silos Around those articles and kind of kept Doing that and it got me there I think By the end of that year it was doing I Think I touched 5K by the end of the Year uh and then 2017 it started to Really ramp up well not really it was Really pure Amazon at the time right
Like ads were not so big at the time I Remember like you know it was before Media why not Thrive Etc so ours were Really not the play I Believe Yeah no you’re right I think I had a Zoic on maybe at the time or or just Pure AdSense it could have been just Pure AdSense at the time yeah I can Imagine that yeah I heard AdSense is Good these days actually it got a lot Better I remember at the time it was Terrible right you made like five bucks Per thousand visitors or something and Now you know like some of the networks Hit like 60 70 80 for a thousand Visitors Yeah I was gonna ask you actually we’re Talking about a current AP gardening After because um I saw your Runners Actually Um Yeah okay so you got to these four 5K Months towards the end of 2016 mostly by Doing affiliate marketing Um where did you take it next So let me think about the trajectory so 20 yeah I mean like 2016 I think epic made like 17 grand you know Which was half a Year’s worth of trying To build it and then the next year 2017 We did Um when I say we it’s just me I we did Like 78 000 or something like that so we Almost almost
Quadrupled maybe we did uh but so 2017 Was really about like building links Promoting and that is when I had a writer pure SEO and like not in A weird SEO person way I just like was Emailing universities and was like Hey Like I think this article is strong like Whatever Um and so we were getting tons of links That way and then eventually it’s kind Of like the growth levers for every Business are different but in SEO or Content sites it’s kind of like you Start the site you write eventually it’s Not worth your time to write as much Anymore you need to hire an expert to Write at least that’s my opinion and Then as I was building links I was like Okay I have this sort of snowball of Promotion I now need to do something Different because the promotion of Getting less marginal return from each New link that I get you know like at This point there’s no point in Epic Building links because yeah we just a New York Times story just came out on us I didn’t have to try to go get that how Did you how did you get that happen in The early days because like now it Happens but like you’re already a pretty Big brand but back then it was a bit More of a challenge I guess I mean back Then it was it was just grinding and Emailing people you know it wasn’t not
Not for like interviews or whatever just For like hey like this art articles old It replaced the link with my article Like all that kind of stuff the old School techniques that I’m really you Emailed the New York time and I think oh No no no no that that article came out Today today as we as we sit here today Oh okay okay I didn’t get any classic Like Big Brand promotion on Epic for Years and years you know uh then it was Really about just like okay Get a writer get some promotion well Then it’s get a team of writers and have A writer manage that writer Um and get some help with the promotion And then I sort of turn to different Platforms which I think is the first Like departure from I guess you’re yeah exactly I forked the model Yeah pretty much so like you basically Was this was your editorial running at The same time so you basically had Writers writing and you’re like well I Don’t need to create content anymore and I’m not doing link building so what am I Going to do and that’s when you turn to Social media was that what happened Pretty much Um I mean like I’ve always tried to Build systems and then have them recur Right so you know when I left writing The blog My editor is a better writer than I’ll
Ever be I’m just not as strong as as she Is or she was and the writers that we Hire are you know we have someone who’s An expert in you know Tree Care an Actual expert right we have someone Who’s an expert in all these different Things so I’m like I I’m a generalist of Gardening and they’re all like obsessed With one part of it Um so I’ll just let them do it as long As we’re putting out quality content That’s really well researched and Correct and in an SEO optimized format For for humans in Google then why should I be doing it I really shouldn’t be you Know but that’s kind of the difference I Think between business building and like Having an authority site that pays your Bills and you don’t have to work the job That you hated right those are two Different like mentalities one is I just Don’t like I agree I don’t like being an Accountant so I’m going to be a blogger Instead and the other is like I’m going To build a business around this this Property So at the time were you spending pretty Much most of your money back into paying Your writers like how did that work Money-wise because yeah still didn’t Make that much I guess yeah you know I Think Back then I’ve never paid writers per Word I’ve always paid flat fee per
Article Um and then what I used to do with my Editor is she would manage the writers And so she’d get a per edit fee and a Writing fee because she’d also write and So it that kept it pretty lean because Then if you’re not incentivizing a per Word then the Articles don’t bloat and All that Um yeah so it wasn’t it wasn’t that Expensive but yeah I mean I was putting At least half the money back in and then The rest comes out and you don’t really Have much after taxes to be honest so Yeah exactly you know it was if I was Smarter I would have put As much as this is what I tell like my Cousin who has a fishing site now and Other people I’m like you should just Put a hundred percent of the profit back In besides whatever Nets out that post Tax that pays your bills you literally Live exactly off that because your Compounding will be so much greater if You do it that way Yeah you know uh yeah especially because You don’t pay tax on that this Investment is basically just switch the Cost yeah business expense exactly so You get like whatever tax rate you’re Paying on your income you get that as Extra investment pretty much so it’s a It’s it’s pretty good okay so you’re Basically at this point and you
Automated that they were writing content You were cruising on SEO basically you Were growing and then then you start Looking uh social media yeah so so I Mean I did have a YouTube channel for a While Um like I started in 2013 but I never Really did much with it Um and so in 20 I don’t know 1617 I started doing more On Instagram more on on YouTube Um what do we what else do we do I think It was really just that at the time and I was gonna ask did you start on one Platform or did you just do everything Right oh you know what’s really on Everything right now like yeah we’re on Every I can’t find a platform you know I Know yeah we’re on everything now Um actually I want to rewind so in 2017 I started the podcast Um so I did the Epic gardening podcast My cousin and I were doing a different Podcast at the time and then he was like Oh it’s like so hard to start a podcast So I was like watch I’ll start one in a Weekend Um and I tried to think of a podcast I Could start that fast and so I was like Well what if I just did a daily show but It was just three minutes or five Minutes so it’s really easy to record And I can’t it could just be like you Know how to prune a tomato and I just
Say that and then I’m out for the Episode Um so I started that in 2017 and that Now does like 10 million downloads a Year or something like that Um so then so now we have audio right And I and how did I grow the podcast Well I put the top 100 articles in my ga I just put podcast episodes about those And just put them on that so basically Every platform growth hacks the next one You know and so then when YouTube comes Around it’s kind of the same thing I Made videos at least in the early days On the stuff that I knew was getting the Most traffic already so I didn’t have to Launch a YouTube channel cold into the YouTube void I just embedded those Articles on the blog and they started Getting some natural play So you use the SEO to grow social media You had traffic landing on your blog and You just embedded whatever you did so do You embed in Instagram as well for Example or yeah I tried that and I Realized that doesn’t really work that Well but yeah people don’t they just Don’t really do that but yeah like I Mean videos natural in bed and so is Podcast so yeah I guess I did I mean I Just wanted I was just looking for like An Avenue why start the YouTube channel Cold when you can just embed right it’s Just easier yeah yeah I mean I I would
Argue that it might even be easier to Start a blog get some SEO traffic and Then grow your YouTube channel that way Then just call trying to grow a YouTube Channel with zero subscriber on day one And yeah you know you have to publish Lots of content before you start getting Decent views on this you kind of like Rank on YouTube itself I guess yeah I Mean I would say like these these days With YouTube it would be possible to Start cold but you’d have to be really Good to start like you’d have to be a Master of retention thumbnails titles Attention like holding throughout the Entire video difficult it’s you’re not Going to get there at the start and I Start really wasn’t so yeah it’s easier To do it So if we go back to the story you Started on you had a YouTube channel Like how often were you posting at that Time like how how much effort were you Putting in at that time I Pro I probably Put out in maybe 20 videos that year 15 Or 20 not that many so like one every Two weeks yeah yeah which in gardening Is that’s kind of low it’s like pretty Pretty bad so yeah so you’re doing that And your Instagram basically you you’ve Been I think I remember you playing with Uh with on other accounts with Instagram Bots Etc a long time ago yeah um but it Wasn’t on that account it was on some
Other stuff so I knew you were Interested in the platform but I Obviously you’ve grown a real audience And enjoyed properly this since then Yeah yeah so so IG And it’s so funny because like every Platform It’s so different than SEO right Google Is making algorithmic changes all the Time we know that but like the game has Been more or less the same as long as It’s been around there’s been some major Changes that you’ve but all those Changes have basically forced Publishers To just get better at to do it right to Stop cheating yeah yeah exactly yeah and So but but on like Instagram YouTube Tick Tock Etc It’s changing in a way culturally like The strategies change in a cultural way Like on YouTube for example right now We’re sort of in this era of extremity Like the most extreme thing you can do With the most fast-paced cuts and and Edit will do better than than something Else generally speaking you know that’s Why you see all these like Mr Beast Clones out there because it’s working so Well Um so on so on Instagram back then I was Making epic gardening was basically like A community page like I’d share what I Was gardening but I’d also share with Other people were gardening and it sort
Of got some attention that way because If you’re sharing people’s stuff they They appreciate it Um and then I finally transitioned to Like putting my face on it you know Sharing in stories when that came out And and all that and that was like the Biggest social community that that we Developed at the start Yeah and and I think that’s a lot Of stuff I remember you were quite big On that uh on uh posting stories Etc I Think one thing that has been strong With you is like every time social Networks have been putting a new feature You’ve been jumping on it early right It’s like uh we actually did a Mastermind in like the first year of Tick tock or something like we’re in London yeah and you are already all over It right and now you have like a million Subscribers or whatever like it’s crazy How many subscribers Tick Tock will Probably be at 2 million soon but you’re No you’re you’re totally right like 2019 August is when I got on Tick Tock Um for gardening specifically I think I Technically had a musically account Before that but that doesn’t really Count and I deleted the the dancing Videos so those are gone but um you know I was very disappointed I was checking Uh your Tick Tock account before the the Podcast now and I didn’t see any column
Kids uh videos I did do one chord I did It I did do it I’ll send it to you but Um no I love that guy but no anyways so Yeah I mean the way I always think about It because I’ve studied Tech and Startups in Silicon Valley culture and Stuff a lot and all the classic like Growth hacking and the science of Platforms and stuff just because it’s Interesting to me And there’s the the adoption curve right So like early adopter then you have the Bell curve and your blade I’m like look What’s the downside of spending 50 to 100 hours like trying trying each Platform because if they win Like we were the first gardener on Tick Tock so obviously all the attention’s Going to us I don’t even have to be good Right because if you think of supply of Content and demand of content if there’s Any demand for gardening and there’s one Person supplying it I just monopolized Attention on an entire platform at the Early days so how could I not grow Um and then eventually we learned how to Do Tick Tock better better and better And now my skill at creating content on Tick Tock bled over to Instagram and YouTube and improve those platforms too You know Schultz yeah yeah and rules uh Yeah yeah and also like the thing is Like the amount of effort would take if You started today to get to 2 million
Subscribers would be probably 10 times Higher than what you have put in to get 2 million subscribers because of that Initial snowball yeah uh and so like That that first move was a vintage it’s Massive and I think that’s kind of like A trade that a lot of seos are pretty Bad at like people tend to do what we’ve Always done in SEO and um and uh I think That’s what differentiated you but I Want to ask you Um we you we know you have a store we Talked about that sure like a little bit But did you when you started going on Social platforms did you monetize at all When you got in there like how did you Justify spending that much time when you Just walked in and then your your Editorial team was just writing content Instead of like trying to make a bigger Editorial team for example yeah you know I probably should have I probably should Have made a bigger editorial team to be Honest with you because I I think so Much about how much faster I could have Grown epic if I knew everything I knew Today Um and like what then what would that Mean then when I raised capital or you Know the value of the company would have Been higher at that point in time There’s all sorts of things like that Um so I think to your point like I Probably should have scaled the
Editorial team better Um but I guess my whole thought on on This was You know even today you still see seos And Niche site people Etc saying like oh Don’t out my site and don’t do this or Don’t do that I’m like look like If your SEO is the SEO industry is like Weirdly one of the only ones that people Are like weird and secretive about Everything and I’m like look you go look At the wire cutter Brian Lamb he wasn’t Like oh like I don’t tell anyone I’m Working on this it’s like there’s no Moat if you’re just building a kind of a Crappy Authority site in my opinion so I Was gonna say yeah you need a moat and So I was like well what’s my moat well My mode is I’m actually back then there Was this whole debate of like should you Put your face on your site and I’m like Why would you not I don’t understand it Doesn’t make sense and then uh let alone Where is Authority coming from well it’s Coming from people right like people Trust people unless you people say You’re an authority you don’t say you’re An authority basically yeah exactly so I Was like okay well if I build in public So to speak like all these different Platforms and I talk about gardening and Because I’m never I’ve never said I’m an Expert I’ve been like oh I like it and I’m learning along with everyone
Um I was like well that that’s that’s Just that’s just an edge no one else is Willing to do and I’ll do it uh and it It seemed to pay off Yeah I think one of the reasons people Are secretive about a lot of their Projects is because there’s very little Added value to the sites being built Um and it’s like it’s very like if you Can basically copy paste the site with Spinning the content and probably get Similar results right whereas it would Be more difficult to do with epic Gardening and I think that’s kind of the Problem and I think that Google is Trying to break that with the recent Updates with the c80 staff Etc yeah Um and and it’s like to be honest it’s Doing quite okay like definitely the way People build size will have to change Eventually I think Um but uh but yeah I think that’s why The industry is so secretive about about What they do basically yeah I think That’s a a big issue to me it’s kind of Like a tell of something I don’t think Sorry yeah I was gonna say like it’s Kind of well I have like kind of like Strong opinions on this more than most Seos probably but yeah I mean to me it’s A tell that like you’re not really Trying that hard to build a property That you’re like proud of or to your Point has any Competitive Edge over
Anything else in the space you know Yeah I think uh people need like we need To build more original stuff now the Thing is like the thing is Google has Not been rewarding originality for the Past few years I mean yeah let’s be Honest the way you run your content on Your blog is also very SEO where you’re Trying too much the social intent you’re Doing all that and that’s why like the Stuff where you do that magic works well If you were going all in with like a new Way to grow tomatoes that is quite Creative that you’ve done in your garden And was your own personal experience I Don’t think you would rank for how to Grow tomatoes and I think that’s a big Problem with Google in general is that As a platform like now you go on these Social platforms you go on Tick Tock you Go on YouTube you discover new awesome Stuff and you get like Amazed by the Stuff you learn whereas you go on Google Is just giving the answer everyone’s Always given without allowing any space For any new ideas Um and and hopefully they’re working on That but Um I think you can blame issues but you Can blame Google a little bit for Rewarding that a little bit too much as Well that’s my opinion oh I agree it’s It’s definitely it’s definitely both but Yeah I guess like the way I looked at
Social platforms too is I was like well Blogging is the oldest Content Tech on the internet right then Then maybe you could say I guess YouTube Or video came next and I was like yeah I Mean I will never leave blogging I mean We’re gonna get 10 15 million uniques This this year probably Um and we’re probably buying other sites Too so we’re gonna do that but it’s just The it’s just the oldest way to do it so The younger demographics it feels old as Well yeah I’m like just the younger Demographics are not going to block They’re like searching Tick Tock now or They’re looking on YouTube or whatever So I’ll I’ll be everywhere and that is Authority right if you’re everywhere So do you think that doing all these Social stuff I mean doing all these Socials have got you like on TV you did Some like ad campaigns you did a lot of Stuff like either Timberland that Campaign I think I remember uh you’re Like always on these morning shows where They ask you about uh like gardening Tips and stuff don’t you think that Eventually got you links and mentions Etc that I eventually got you where you Were in terms of SEO traffic and Indirectly the great detail of Google of Do great content and your rank Eventually paid off here it was just a Really really long game
Yeah I mean yeah I know you’re right Like the The good so we did like I did Good Morning America three times which is our Biggest show we did that Timberland Thing Etc like you’re totally right I think The thing that I always because I don’t Think of myself as like an SEO anymore Really uh not anymore no definitely not Yeah but but I guess like boiling that All down to saying I got the links And that’s the ins thus that was worth It to me I’m like okay well yeah that’s Like a byproduct you get links you get Authority but it was worth it because of The it the action itself is worth it It’s not necessarily because of it it Got me links right like it’s it’s just Because our missions like Teach the World to grow so if I go on a morning Show that’s furthering that mission Because maybe someone yeah out there Watches it and decides to like dive into Our content and and actually learn how To garden you know Yeah I agree and I mean I I think it Paid off I just the pro my problem is Google takes a way too long time to Reward people actually doing it yeah uh And it’s like you’ve been at it for a Long time now Um but like someone who sells a website Today
You know they won’t be and they start Doing all that stuff they probably won’t Be rewarded for several years until they Actually get some pretty big recognition And then Google can reach these signals You know Um so like yeah I wish they would read a Little bit faster into this stuff Especially being one of the biggest tech Companies in the world Um do you think all site owners should Do social media I guess it just depends on your goals You know like I talked to other other Site owners and they’re just trying to Flip the site for like a million bucks Or whatever it is Um yeah and then get the and I’m just Like yeah do whatever you want it’s just Yeah some models it doesn’t work I think In a lot of passion categories like Obviously gardening Hunting Fishing Knitting sewing whatever those all would Benefit right now from from someone Having Like someone who’s really passionate About like going all in and putting Their face on it making content about it On as many platforms as they can If your goal is to build like a a brand Because right now we’re looking at this World of like Legacy brands are getting Eaten Away by who it’s just by people Like me or Mr Beast or whoever you know
Mr Beast has a chocolate bar now Logan Paul has a drink the drink is outselling Yeah the burgers like yeah Logan Paul’s Drink is out selling Powerade in America Wow um in Target I think which is Powerade I was drinking as a kid you Know he’s gonna do 100 million on his Drinks it’s like if you want I think Tai Lopez is buying a bunch of Brands as Well like he’s buying a bunch of Furniture brands and like making E-commerce from them that’s quite crazy Being eaten up yeah he bought Radio Shack and he bought tier One Imports Which is like I my mom used to like Splurge and go there for like a piece of Furniture when we were kids and then I Don’t know what he’s doing with it Because it seems like all I see is the Radio Shack Twitter account just Trolling people but I don’t know what They’re actually doing with the brand But it seems like it seems like when You’re that rich that’s what you do you Know yeah I guess so you just hire Someone as well hahaha So you you do a lot of these social Content we say that you’re on like all These platforms Etc how do you organize That how do I do this like I want to do This yeah what do I do Kevin so like if You want to do it for Authority hacker Right Yeah yeah so I mean basically we we use
If you’re talking like raw tactics we Use notion Um to sort of organize our content world So basically like on YouTube Every Platform is it’s what did I say I had a Tweet I thought was pretty smart ones I Was like content is a language so like Content creation is a language but the Platforms are like dialects of the Language so on on video on YouTube Instagram Tick Tock like really Instagram reels are kind of different From Tick Tock you can’t do the exact Same thing on Tick Tock as you can on Instagram reels you can it just if if You were doing a perfectly optimal Strategy they would be different because Like the inside jokes the cutting the Culture on Tick Tock is just different Than Instagram right so it kind of Depends on how bespoke you want to go on Each piece of content because you could Do what like I don’t know um you know That my first million podcast those guys Uh Sean Perry and Sam par that they’ll They’ll just like cut up their podcasts And put those on tick tocker reels so You could definitely do that I mean I I Tend to think of YouTube as the long Form like holy grail piece so that’s Your that’s your wide format like long Form And if I can I’ll cut something up and I’ll put that on on social but I
Typically won’t I will typically just Make the content directly on the Platform itself but that’s easy because I’m a gardener I mean I can go into the Garden and make content like that it’s Different in your guys space you guys Probably have to have a long format That’s very clippable and then you use That format to clip down into your Instagram podcast Etc like that’s these guys that’s that’s The play yeah that’s the play for you Guys Um that’s what I would probably be doing Um and then on YouTube I would go way more edutainment than Pure entertainment you know because like Like part of why I think epic works on YouTube and I always go back and forth On like how good I am or bad I am at YouTube but like part of why I think it Works is I just I I don’t look like the Typical Gardener I don’t talk like the Typical Gardener I call things stupid Silly names like there’s inner there’s An entertainment value to it that’s not Just the education and what seems to be The case online is you have to entertain Or like create some emotion first and Then the back end value is the education That they it’s kind of like they take They take their medicine without knowing It type of thing Um yeah I agree I think that’s why I
Mean our podcast gets quite good Downloads compared to like most of the Competition yes shield and I think That’s because of the stupid jokes we Have with Mark and things like that and Like people like that well you guys yeah I mean you guys are like really like the Leaders of the space you know I don’t know if other videos but like I In the podcast maybe but like Um yeah I think that people like that I Always tell people when they ask me like Why are you saying stupid stuff on the Podcast and I’m like because the people Have the choice to watch Netflix instead If they won’t oh yeah um and uh and it’s Like I need I need to provide some Entertainment so that they don’t feel Like they missed out on Netflix Um and so like sometimes it’s it’s Thought about like sometimes I check my Notes and I have like really really bad Jokes written yeah on my notes you know Like if I’m like opening a curtain like Most people don’t know that but that’s Quite interesting okay enough about me Unless you have one last night I do have One thing so what you’re talking about So have you heard of the like the Parasocial relationship Um idea so so basically like is there is There a content creator that you like That’s not in you know the SEO space Like that you just watch on YouTube or
Something Uh Linus Tech tips I would say okay so He’s actually a really good example of This so when you watch Linus and his Team now so he’s sort of he’s like he’s Really led the way for a lot of creators If you think about it because he’s a Creator stuff who has like 80 to 100 Staff he has product Etc et cetera right and he’s done this All himself so he’s like way more Impressive than most creators out there Um why does everyone like him though Because you can get that from mpb HD or Someone else it’s because of who he is So you feel like when you watch him you Actually know him right like I do at Least when I watch Lance I’m like oh I Know what he’s going to say to this I Know how he’s going to react to that I Know his Vibe generally speaking and if I saw him at a coffee shop In my head at least I would go up and I’d be like oh like I know exactly Everything about you as a human being Now then he would look at me and he’d be Like who the hell is this guy like I Don’t I don’t know and that happens to Me now when I go out I kind of like like I I can’t go out Yeah exactly where all the disciples are Exactly dude I go out and this what made Me realize it I was like okay I was out On Catalina Island with my girlfriend
And we were driving this golf cart and As we’re driving this golf cart these Other golf cart was like epic gardening And it was like all these kids you know And then my girlfriends take trolling me She’s taking a photo like a story of me While I’m taking a selfie with this kid And he’s telling me all this stuff that He’s seen me do and asking me how it was Doing and it’s like a year ago’s content You know and I’m like yeah these people Think they know me as a person and That’s just how it is online so that’s Called a parasocial relationship you Develop a connection to someone you’ve Never met and that’s why like the Edutainment adding the jokes having the Me games and all that stuff is so Valuable because first of all it’s just Like more accurate to who you are if That’s how you actually act like that’s How I act and that’s how you act so it’s More authentic and then that breeds more Connection where you’ll go to your guys Podcast over the guy who’s just like Well today we’re talking about the eat Update and you know here’s here’s what It is you know like that you’ll just go To you Okay cool well that is a lot of good Tips for how to uh essentially use our Podcasts to use to do in Social and I Think a podcast is quite easy to start For a lot of people it’s probably less
Intimidating than doing full developed YouTube videos is a lot less editing Etc So Um yeah it could be a good idea in a lot Of niches I guess uh the problem with Podcast is they tend to not grow on Their own so but I think with the social Promotion it could go quite well um I Wanted to talk to you about the Ecom Part of your business because that’s Something that was added like a few Years ago I said like two three years Three years ago maybe something like This yeah it would have been three years 2019 yeah yeah uh so why did you get Started like how did that go I think you Had some partnership with some brand in Australia or something yeah yeah so Basically I mean when you’re when you’re A pure like a blogger you’re making Money on Amazon or ads or maybe a Sponsored post or something right So there’s that then you get into like YouTube and Instagram and stuff and it’s Kind of the same thing it’s like YouTube Is owned by Google so you get AdSense There you’ll get maybe a brand deal Maybe there’s some affiliate links or Something so it’s gonna make good money From affiliate on YouTube just just to Close that chapter affiliate on YouTube Probably not but I didn’t really try It’s hard to track because it’s still on Amazon you know so yeah so so then I’m
Like okay well if you really think about Those three monetization models ads are Linearly fluctuating on your traffic Which can change outside of your control With an update Um Amazon is really just Bezos deciding He doesn’t want to pay you anymore Um which which to be honest happened I Mean gardening was eight percent in 2019 When I started product and part of the Reason I started is I was like I was Starting to do really well on affiliate On Amazon Affiliates and I’m like well What if Bezos just decides he doesn’t Want the affiliate program anymore then I’ll just lose multiple five figures a Month every month and then what happened 2020 they cut it and five fifty percent So in a day I went from prop we were Probably going to make 70 grand in a Month and then we made like 35. not that That’s not money I know that is but Still I mean that’s a 50 Revenue hit When you use that money to pay salaries And things like that it’s real it’s a Problem it’s real so so in 2019 I was Like look All these Brands keep wanting to pay me To do stuff why don’t I just pay myself To sell the product directly to my Audience that aligns me better with my Audience and not a brand right so then My audience becomes my customer instead Of them being the product that a brand
Wants to advertise to so I was like it’s Better for me and it’s better for my Audience if I just sell the things Directly to them and so that’s what I Did so 2019 I I grabbed a deal with These in Australian company named Birdies who makes a raised garden bed That was really popular just showing up Everywhere like anytime I put it in the In my content everyone be like what is That what is that what is that and so Then the content basically is is a Demand uh discovery engine effectively So I could put anything in the content That I thought was interesting and Anything that got an outsized response Well I’ll just sell that then because it I like it and they they clearly like it You know uh but I started out with just The raised bed so we I bought a Container of raised beds um for like 30 Grand which is a lot a lot a lot of Money it’s a big yeah it was a bit of a Gamble on your first one I guess like How did you feel about this when you got Um dude I was pretty clown like I was Pretty juvenile like I didn’t know Anything about Ecom right so I I talked To them I was like I emailed them every Quarter for from 2018 to 2019 saying Like hey can I sell these and they Finally said yes uh because I guess Their other distributor stopped or Something so I ordered a 20-foot
Container with maybe 600 beds worth of Product in it and it was thirty thousand Dollars and I actually didn’t know how To ship it I didn’t know so I set a Shopify store up on a sub domain I Didn’t know how to ship or how to clear It through customs and all that and so They they helped me yeah so some of that I studied that it’s a lot of work Actually yeah it’s just yeah it’s just Confusing there’s just so many different Terms and stuff And now you’re dealing with the real World you’re not just dealing with Content right so What I did is I set the Shopify store up On the subdomain and then I just said Hey look I’m bringing these to America You guys can order them they’ll be here In a couple months I only have 600 for This first batch so first come first Serve sold those out and why did you say That just on Instagram like I said that On everywhere I think Um everyone everywhere that I had a Platform you know I probably made a Podcast episode about it or something I See oh yeah okay or like a podcast Bumper reel or something but anyways That sold in like two weeks and so then You have the cash from the sale so it’s Still it’s still floating in the Pacific Over to me and so then I bought another One with that cash and sold that out
And then I was like okay oh this is Probably going to be a big deal because Now and now we still didn’t figure out Their shipping at that point right no no I had not figured the shipping out so I Was organizing that on the way basically I I thought I was going to rent a Storage space and unload this container By hand into a like a personal storage Space that you can rent you know and Then ship it out from there and looking Back I’m like that what a stupid idea That was it doesn’t even make sense so I Ended up working with the third party Logistics company that they’ll Warehouse It for you and they’ll ship it because These are already in their boxes you Just have to put a label on it and ship It so it’s really easy it’s not like You’re packing anything Um so yeah I mean that as soon as the Second container sold out before it even Got to America I was like okay this is Obviously the future of this business Because There’s crazy demand and it’s way more Robust of a strategy than just writing Articles you know okay so you studied That you got your two containers then What happened like you sold these two Containers then how did you make this Into the business it is today how did That transition so well I mean you can’t Deny that covet in the pandemic had a
Huge impact on gardening right I mean oh Yeah we were doing I mean I think in 2019 I did well over half a million in Revenue uh just as a solo operator which Is great I mean that’s you’re making it At that point you’re making more than Lawyers doctors whatever uh as like a Random Gardener so I was like okay cool But Uh my goal for 2020 is like okay well I Want to hit a million in a year because That’s a great goal it’s like sort of a Good 2x growth goal especially when You’re a young company so I set the goal For 1.2 million so I could like run Through the Finish Line on that goal and Like guarantee I got there and then Covet happened and when that happened Gardening just exploded so the content Platforms exploded and here’s the beauty To kind of when it was on social as well That’s the thing so like the beauty is I By 2020 I already had I think like the 12th most popular gardening blog on the Internet I already had Uh 200 something thousand subscribers on YouTube I already had 200 000 or Something on Instagram I already had a Podcast every single day so if you Wanted to get into gardening during that Boom literally you could not not find us We were everywhere and so basically it’s This content web that every every strand Strengthened the other strand and so I
Was waking up in March of that year and We would be getting 15 000 Subs a day The traffic on the blog was like 200 Concurrent every day you know what I Mean and so I was like okay now let’s go And so I decided to do three videos a Week for that whole year which blew us Up to almost past a million just that Year Um I think I mean maybe like 800 that’s A million subscribers subscribers yeah Okay Um and so you know product wise too I Could not even get the product and Anything I sold immediately sold out Um and I was literally buying as much as I could humanly afford and selling it The second I put the order in and I knew That the production was locked and in a Container somewhere so I physically knew It existed I would put it up on the Store and I’d say pre-order it’s ready In 90 days to 120 days order now and They would and people would just sell it Out like we we had days where Um you know this is just again this is Just me with my editor team and a video Editor at this point there’s there’s no One else really And we had days where we would launch The product almost like a drop model Like when you drop some hyped product This is just scarcity basically but true Scarcity because we didn’t have enough
Yeah yeah because you actually run out Yeah I have I have a screen recording Back in the day of dropping a new Container of product onto the store and It in four to five minutes it made 50 Grand you know but it’s of course that’s A liability if you really think about It’s a liability because it’s cash that I’ve collected that I have to then Deliver on and people who just like Would be repeat customers don’t get Their first experience Etc like it’s a Big missed opportunity as well to not Have cash I remember that like you were You were scrapping for for stocks at the Time and you were it was stressing you a Lot actually oh it was super stressful Because then then you know you you try To be as upfront as possible but like When the product’s coming and even your Best estimates are late especially During that time like shipping was Broken everywhere still kind of is and So I’d be like look I’m sorry I’m doing The best I can guys order if you are Comfortable getting it at a point in the Future future is what I started saying Because I didn’t even know when stuff Was coming in but I couldn’t not sell it Because if I don’t sell it during the The hottest time the gardening seen in a Decade you missed your opportunity right So Yeah it was it was crazy I mean I I
Still think epic would be Quite successful without the pandemic Because we were beforehand but um you Know that obviously boosted a lot of People You’re at the right time at the right Place with the right setup basically Like you had been building up for years And it’s like I mean it’s awesome like It’s really cool to see that yeah it’s Like you can’t predict these things but Um but they do happen and I think you’re A good a good story of that and uh how Do you run yourself like did you sell go Down since the pandemic now like did you Like bump a lot and then level off or You’re just uh you know I was scared That that would be the case because like 2020 and 2021 was basically two pandemic Years call it so but the interest was High on both those years and I started Getting worried especially because we Raised investment in 2021 at the very End of the year and I was like well Let’s hope I’m right about next year Being a good gardening year Um and yeah this year we’re up a hundred Percent year over year in sales that’s Pretty good so yeah it’s it’s going well You know it’s going well and we’re Looking at um the benefits how do you Drive sales these days like do you have Like more of a system or is it just you Just dropping mentions on social media
Yeah so A lot of your retargeting uh finally I Do actually yeah Yeah so I we hired because I don’t have Any competency in paid ads right and I Don’t really personally at least don’t Want to build it so we hired an agency That um that helps us out with that but Yeah it’s crazy I mean even think about It from from this let’s imagine like you Guys had I don’t know take Health Ambition back in the day and you had all The platforms think about how easy the Retargeting would be when your pixel is Already organically hitting Millions Right oh yeah that’s I mean that’s also How we run our other product businesses You know it’s like we do that a lot of Sales on the Toyota work exactly that Way like people discover us organically They land on the site we don’t have to Pay to build the audiences and then it’s Just like you run retargeting on that It’s like a model very few people talk About because most people run either as Or SEO but really mix both yeah um but There’s so much because the cost of Paydays is very often building the Audience right so writing some video out To like have some engagement and then Just be targeting people engage or Something like this and when you get it For free it’s like the profit is insane Actually it’s crazy I mean our agency
Was like we haven’t seen return on ad Spend of this number you know like we Were we were in double digit return on Ad spend on basic stuff and you’re Totally right man like think about a Classic direct to Consumer company like Um do you know quip it’s that toothbrush Company they were popular for a while or Like take like man maybe like manscaped Or something yeah oh they weren’t really Good ads actually yeah so so think about Manscape like they’re they came from Product first and they they scale via The classic direct to Consumer model of Is your customer acquisition lower than Your long-term value right and and then It’s paid ad model but where’s their Retention coming from it’s it’s really Not coming from anywhere besides pure Commerce stuff like your customer Service or something like that now we Can do that at Epic we and we do run Paid ads but where’s our retention Coming from it’s because they love the Brand they love what exactly Yeah so I could sell the same stuff as Someone else and still do well now I Don’t because I want to sell better Products Um so I don’t put slap like some random Thing up there but so so this this Blended model it beats a traditional Direct to Consumer model yeah but on the Content side if you’re looking at like a
Content site like the spruce or Something which is probably half the People listening arch nemesis of a Website because they have everything They rank everywhere the spruce does not To my knowledge at least offer product And I’m like a huge opportunity it’s a Huge Miss it’s just because they don’t Have competency and they don’t want to Do it so I’m like both of these models Together is unbeatable and then when you Layer on the Creator sort of economy Type of stuff where like the Mr beasts Or the who the who’s the strong Personality like the the hero of the Story these are the people that are These are the business models that are Gonna eat the internet I think you know Like Emma Chamberlain Chamberlain coffee Now imagine imagine if she had that but Also had a whole universe of content Maybe what if she acquired the second Biggest coffee website out there you Know and then expanded the business that Way that would obviously be the right Move so anyways I could go on forever About that exactly because these social Platforms like I mean 80 of your spend Ends up being building the audience but If you build it for free with your Organic and not only that but like People people who follow you organically Are going to be so much more engaged and So have a such a higher conversion rate
Than people who just randomly got Advertised like a very Bland piece of Content too Um and so I’m sure like you’ve seen like You switch from being an affiliate to Selling your own products I’m sure You’ve seen a jump in conversions that Was quite significant when you sold your Own stuff and it was yours yeah it’s Like I wanted to ask about that actually I actually have a really good example of That dude so there’s a vertical garden Planter called a green stock Garden that I really like it’s really well made it’s It’s quality especially when I was in a Smaller space growing it’s just like a Stand-up thing with a bunch of little Pockets and you can grow in it and so I Was an affiliate for that For a while even while I was selling Product I would do a blended model where I sold my my raised beds but everything Else was affiliate and I think there was A I probably made 30 to 40 Grand just Being their affiliate but now we sell Them on our store and they’re like well If you if you’re on our store you can’t Be you can’t be both right you have to Be what are the other so I was like okay Well we’ll buy from you wholesale and We’ll sell on the store and if I look I Mean to date we’ve done well over six Figures in that sale that product to Just on our store you know uh obviously
You have to make six figures as an Affiliate like to make six figures of Southern f8 would be very difficult even With your reach I think yeah so now now We think of these models where like the Content and the products play together So well so like I just got some chickens I got into chicken keeping and what we Want to do now is we want to offer Chicken keeping stuff on the store so we Have a couple products that I tested and I really liked and so did the other Creators and we can get into that if you Want to because now it’s not just me It’s like other creators yeah you have Another person has like he has his own YouTube channel right that’s right yeah Jacques yeah Jacques was my like I hired Him um for 20 bucks an hour uh to work In the garden to help me out and then he Quit his pH he was doing a PhD in Geology and he quit to work at Epic Gardening I paid him more than 20 bucks When he quit but and then now I was like Jocked I think it’d be great if you made Your own platforms because people like Your approach a little different than my Approach and so now basically what we’re Thinking about is how can you make Multiple sub brands that are about a Thing that I can’t focus all my time on So I can’t only talk about chickens but A chicken person could only talk about Chickens and if we build like this Oprah
Winfrey of gardening you know yeah if we Build like the IP around whatever you Want to call that property like instead Of Epic gardening it’d be like I don’t Know like chicken life or whatever Whatever you want to call it that might Have its own YouTube channel podcast and Instagram that’s way easier to sell the Chicken content and sell the chicken Products over there so that we’re Thinking about it from both sides like More products more content I think if you expand too wide then You’re gonna lose conversion rate as Well you can yeah you can’t it’s gonna Be hard to like like people who grow Plants they don’t they’re not Necessarily interested in chickens like It’s just two different types of people They might I think if yeah keeping it in The in the lane even Google in their Last update they’re like please stay in Your lane literally that’s that’s the uh Patch notes basically and so I think It’s a good idea and that’s why for Example dot dash right this proof case Um they actually used to runabout.com Which was aside about everything and now They’re breaking them up in MO like they Had a very I can’t remember I think it Was very well.com only and now they have Very well feed very well minded and they Just keep breaking up into more and more Nisha and I really think of the outcome
Was to this eventually uh they’re gonna Make a lot of money they’ll dominate if They do yeah they’re they’re they’re Their thing they don’t have at least to My knowledge is they haven’t got content Competency on on platforms besides just Raw publishing yeah so there’s I mean Our my thesis is they’re running a dying Model of basically web publishing Monetized by ads like bespoke ad Network Or whatever big buys you know because They can say like hey we have 47 million Uniques I think it’s changing so I was Actually watching the I was reading the Transcript of the earning call and the The for example for their product Reviews they said they had more than Faulty test kitchens to test uh kitchen Equipment and make real photos and Everything so it’s the jump from these Two making videos for example is not That far it’s not that far once you have That real life setup you have the people Doing it Etc like it’s not like that’s The hard part it’s kind of like jumping From just staring at a screen and Writing an article to doing things in Real life and then relate to it in Content and I think that’s like jump a Lot of seos are reluctant to do and but They’ve all they’re already doing that Jump and I think the next one after that Will be video and then all these social Platforms and they could do quite well I
Think I think you’re right I mean the Model I Look to is like if you look at Um Bon Appetit which was it’s a cooking Magazine and then they they went out They went to YouTube and they basically Had Bon Appetit Test Kitchen which is Exactly what you’re talking about with Dot dash so they said okay we’re already Testing these recipes let’s just film us Testing the recipes exactly and then They had 12 talents basically and of Those 12 talents like six of them are Super famous now because their Personalities are great and they make Good videos but what people don’t Understand in my opinion is if you’re The brand owner it’s very rare that You’re also the talent typically Especially if you’re old media so if You’re Bon Appetit it’s not like the CEO Is like I’m gonna make some french toast Today you have to have the talent Underneath now if you come up as a Creator like like I did or like Beast or Any of these other people then you are Weirdly both Um but to to expand like it’s not about Bon Appetit makes a YouTube channel it’s Like you love these 12 people and you Associate them with Bon appetitive There’s a stronger connection the Problem is like paying Talent is they Get off I should take a like BuzzFeed is A good example for example BuzzFeed yeah
Why I left BuzzFeed videos yeah exactly Like they’ve had like these try guys and All that stuff that did really well and Eventually they just leave and do their Own stuff because they can’t possibly Play them as much as they would make on Their own so the problem is building Your talents from these big companies is It’s gonna either cost them a time Of money yeah or or they they will just Have to renew them all the time like for Example Vice look at a channel like this Like they have this this one guy that Makes this one star reviews that’s Really funny uh and then Um and then that’s it everyone else left Literally this guy like the comments is Like oh he’s carrying the channel on his Back Etc that’s literally yeah if that Guy leaves Vice is over when it’s been Dominating for a long long long long Time because all their best people now Went independent and that’s kind of a Problem for this but that’s great for For us because if you run as like an Individual Creator and like your sort of Personality like the only thing you can Do is just stop doing it but like you Can’t quit on yourself basically you Can’t quit on yourself I mean yeah I Mean what we try to do is you’re totally Right like if you look at Barstool Reports my investor actually invested in Barstool back in the day like they were
I think one of the First Investors in And it obviously did really well for Them so like Barstool does that better Than probably anyone because they’ll you Know they did the call her daddy podcast Right with those two girls and then that Podcast got really really big and there Was all that drama I don’t know if you Know about it but basically they tried Something about it yeah so like this Podcast was it was like one of the Biggest podcasts in the world at the Time and it happened fast it was like Six to 12 months and it became extremely Popular and so they looked at their deal To your point and they were like uh We’re kind of getting screwed like I Don’t like this deal anymore we’re way More popular than when we were and so Dave who’s the founder of Barstool he Was like okay like let’s negotiate it One of the girls was kind of down for it And one was not and so they kicked the Other girl off and then um Alex who’s Who’s the one who stayed she stayed with Barstool for a little bit but then Spotify came and bought the show for 60 Million and so I was asking some folks I Was like well isn’t that bad for Barstool because they lost the show and Someone else was like no because it Proves that if you go to Barstool as a Creator there’s opportunity for you even If it’s not a bar stool so it kind of
Creates this like pipeline of people who Are interested yeah so I don’t know People are like yeah I can if you want a Solo carrier eventually then these are Like good uh good places to stop I guess Um yeah how do you deal with all of that Though being the main Creator being the Face of the brand uh still running a lot Of those things behind the scenes except Like you how much do you walk and are You happy you know you know what’s Interesting is like I was talking with Like now now that I’ve been I’ve been Trying to invest in like stuff for my Own self like I have a trainer now I Know you you got a trainer at one point Right nice yeah so I have a trainer so I’m like Yes actually I’m trying to get Ripped you can see the triceps are Coming in so I can see that and like What you were talking about I got that I Got I got like um I started going to Like a therapist and stuff enough just To just to have someone to talk about Certain things and Um it’s been interesting because you’re Right like I still am doing a huge chunk Of every part of this and if I stop Making videos the whole thing still Crumbles right Um so yeah there’s a lot of there’s a Lot of pressure on it it is fun but There’s also a lot of pressure on like Doing it correctly because now you have
Investors behind you and you want to Make sure you’re doing a good job and It’s not just you anymore there’s Literally 22 human beings that depend on Epic to make their money you know Um so yeah I mean I think we’re we’re Looking to hire some like operator Talent that’s just 10 years better than Me at running this complex of a business Uh because I mean dude now we have five Warehouse locations we have one in the UK one in San Diego one in Tennessee you Know what I mean it’s like there’s just So much to do a look Most of the time okay I’m awake on the Weekends on the weekends I I try not to Um it’s interesting because like Gardening’s so seasonal that I get burnt Out on gardening in September which is Right now and so my content slows down And we’re trying to come up with ways to Like make Evergreen content in the Winter months where no one cares about Gardening you know but yeah I try to Have Like scheduled breaks Um my girlfriend and I got she she Thought I was trolling right I was I was Like what is stress like how do you Define stress and if you’re stressed and She’s like what do you mean like Everyone knows what stress is and I’m Like but I don’t know how to define it Uh or like I don’t know if I how to know
If I’m feeling it and and she’s like Okay like you’re trolling me and like no I literally don’t and then I as I Yeah like I just don’t I just don’t know How to detect it and so I talked to my My therapist about and he was like Okay well Do you feel this do you like like a Two-year-old walking me through it you Know Um and I was just like okay well I guess I I have some work to do in the real Life stuff as well and so I think like The running and gunning of building epic Especially through the pandemic burnt me Out in a way I wasn’t able to detect you Know Yeah I agree I think same for us like we Did quite well during the pandemic so Across multiple projects and so that we Just had nothing else to do just walk Walk and uh and you know you’re like I’m Fine I’m fine I’m fine but like Eventually like you kind of need to deal With yourself especially when you can Get out again uh because it actually Accumulates and and you it’s it’s Creeping on you and you don’t Necessarily notice when it happens and Especially with like I mean running SEO These days is definitely stressful with Google releasing an update every uh Every 10 days yeah it was like well we Might cut your traffic in half in the
Next 10 days we’ll let you know by the End of the rollout uh and that might not Happen and it’s it’s pretty stressful to Be honest so it’s like um I think I said It’s a good discussion to have and I Think a lot of seo seo people must have Failed that okay so Uh one thing I wanted to ask you is like Well you start AP gunning a while ago Right so like you’ve given a lot of like Tips on how you did it Etc it’s Interesting but for example YouTube Today is a completely different beast From YouTube when you started so uh what Advice would you give to someone who Wants to achieve what you’ve achieved But start today So if you wanted to start today I I would actually not start with a Blog Um I don’t think it makes as much sense I so there’s there’s two ways to answer The question one would be Uh if if you have a natural talent for a Specific type of media then probably Just start there so like if you’re Somehow a really good you know speaker Orator maybe a podcast makes sense but If you think about it from a platform Perspective you probably should start on Short form video today I mean I can’t Tell you man how many people I’ve met Who’ve built a business way faster than I did Um by going too short yeah so so I met I
Met this kid Dylan Lemay he’s he’s a Young guy super smart he got big on Tick Tock because he worked at Coldstone and He was doing ice cream and mixing the Ice cream And so he would do these short form Videos they would Loop so you wouldn’t Be able to tell that it replayed itself Because it was so smooth from Tick Tock To Instagram Instagram to YouTube Shorts YouTube shorts to long form YouTube Content and now he has an ice cream Store in New York he actually doesn’t Even really need the blog to run this Business he doesn’t need a Blog about Ice cream you know what I mean so he Could I mean I’m sure maybe at some Point in time he wants some more traffic To his Properties or his products and he Could buy a ice cream Hobby site or Something but he doesn’t even need it Like you don’t even have to have the Blog if you don’t want to Um I think it depends on the personality Of people like some people really really Are like allergic to videos you know Like I’m just yeah I agree with you Um like if I was studying something new I would like for some businesses I’d be Like yep that makes sense but I also Know some people in this community who Like you know they get buttons like they Get spots on their face when you tell Them that they need to do videos well
Think about think about the community Right like the people who are into SE Video tend to at least not be the ones Who like we we tend to be introverted And analytical and want to sit and grind On something behind a computer right Like there’s a huge overlap between us And Gamers or us and like poker players Or something so it’s you’re totally Right like a lot of people if you if you Never want to be on video then just Write it off and just don’t do it or Hire talent to do it for you maybe Yeah I agree Um like I think what I like it’s like is The idea of like hitting like doing These real life stuff so like you know These test kitchens or whatever like Doing the real life stuff building that Real Authority anyway Google really Wants to figure that out eventually they Will like they might be up in The next next few days but they do want To figure that out uh and if they want It they’re Google they have lots of Money to do that figure that stuff out And then as you do that just do multiple Mediums I would say I like the idea of Like you know if you have to take real Photos for your blog it’s not hard you Don’t necessarily have to take videos Where you you put your face on it like You know like people who do Tick Tock Videos they can they take videos and
Then they put this robot voice that Talks over it or something like that Like a helmet like you know what I mean These girls are talks Etc yeah like you Can and I think like hitting multiple Platforms at once but finding the Synergies works really well and I think The thing you did on Epic were Um you use your organic traffic even if It’s not that much but the good the Quality of organic traffic is is regular And like social you know like when you Rank you get kind of the same traffic Every day to grow the other platforms so Like like you did with your podcast like You did with YouTube Etc I think there’s Lots of opportunities in that and Eventually transforming that into a mix Of like content plus having your own Products is really powerful I would say Um yeah I agree I mean you’re totally Right man like there’s a million ways to In the end it’s some there’s awareness And then there’s conversion right like They have to find out about you somehow And they have to purchase from you Somehow and the equation of how you set That up could be a million different Ways I agree um and I think that it’s This convincing people is important too Because too many people in this industry Play for the robots and don’t really Think about the people who read their Sites like they care about bounce rate
Because they might drop their rankings Yeah not because people don’t like the Content yeah exactly exactly and it’s Like That mentality needs to go like Eventually now people like and and and Google seems that I’m going to figure That out and yeah it could take two Years or something it’s good it could Take a while but the thing is like I Don’t want to rebuild like another site In two years since I figure it out now And then so like the stuff you’re Building today is compatible with the Vision Google has it essentially Um I think that is quite important and And that industry is quite blindsided in That aspect I would say okay uh thank You for joining the podcast you have any Final wars of wisdom always Mark ask Mark that question so fine what does Mark say Mark usually has no inspiration and uh And that’s it I guess I would say this like Um Oh man words of wisdom here maybe I’m I’m marking out right now I don’t have Anything great I I guess I would say Like like if I could do it anyone could Do it you know I mean you you saw me Back in the day I mean I was kind of Just a clown Um and I figured it out eventually and
Educated myself and now look look where We are now every case is different I’m Not saying anyone’s going to go to Certain levels but The the there’s never been a better Opportunity still weirdly to make yeah It’s still possible it’s still so Possible and it’s the easiest access of Of anything any opportunity out there to Like you’re just creating stuff on the Internet you know at its most simple uh So it’s cheap it just takes time it Takes time to get good at it it takes to Practice even if you even if you don’t Do that well you’ll still have a skill Set that other companies will pay you For you know what I mean it’s like it’s Great insurance too so anyways that’s All I got yeah because people have been An old doom and groom again with a lot Of the Google changes Etc it’s like and There’s been like pretty dramatic Stories Um but eventually like there’s so many People doing well that are like just Random people I mean we see it all over Hpro right like micro gillispy and like A bunch of these other people they’re Doing really really really well and They’re just people working from their Home office like I guess you are right Now uh and uh and making it happen so Yeah where can people find you online Because I’m sure some people want to
Hear more about you I mean obviously Epic gardening but I think yeah yeah Entrepreneurship is all right yeah just I think just Twitter really um just my Name Kevin spear too uh that’s the only Like platform I have I have a website But it’s under construction right now so Just Twitter Yeah so if you want like more like to Talk more about business with Kevin Follow him on Twitter uh if you want to Check out gardening though you can go Native gardening uh okay Kevin thanks For everything uh thanks for the podcast Super cool to catch up and get everyone To know where you’re at yeah see you Yeah thanks man take care have on I hope You enjoyed the interview we had with Kevin we tried to be as open and honest As possible and really try to share tips That maybe he can steal you in a bit of A different direction than most of the Niche side industry is trying to take You into because I really think a lot of People have the opportunity to build Much bigger businesses than they are When they’re building authority sites And if you actually want to follow on The footsteps of Kevin Kevin’s Style With Atari hacker Pro that we are Relaunching these Sundays so if you want To learn more about our most advanced Training to get started and eventually Get to a point where Kevin is then watch
Out for email on Sunday because this Training is coming back it’s the first Time we open it in a year so it’s been a Long time there’s been lots of updates To the program that we’re going to be Detailing to you on Sunday so Go.iaco.com sign in to our email list And if you’re on our email list watch Out for email on Sunday thank you for Listening and we’ll see you again in two Weeks Thank you